Psionics

[ApproachingWinter]

Oh, and sorry, the main attribute for Psion is Wisdom. Which also should give you an idea on how to RP the character.

And me saying this does not mean it will happen, I'm just one DM. But personally I think they class should have been locked and treated like a PrC. I know on Abyss 404 it is locked and is considered a PrC. Basically for the reason I stated earlier, Psionics is NOT common, it is NOT something anyone who feels like can just learn and do. It's an extremely powerful class that more often than not people use to powergame (AND NO GAIRUS AND SPARTAN I DON'T MEAN YOU!) so players need to prove they can handle the power of the class before they should be allowed to take it.

[micah ormane]

I got AW's back on this one. Totally. It's not the class, it's the sudden influx of psions, out of nowhere, who by all measures should be very very rare. Worse than that, it's the long time epics who just suddenly spawned psionic powers with no RP for Clone or DDoor or whatever powers make epic level monks and wizards more uber with little investment. I'm not referring to anybody here, since all my bad psion experiences have been on Avlis... but 95% of psions I have met IC and OOC have left me with a bitter taste in my mouth. The other 5% I simply adore.

Now on a far less serious note:

I contend that Gairus is the biggest powergamer in all of Copap. He just covers it up by PGing to level 12 and bailing on the PC to do another. We are watching Gairus...you can not escape us!

Database inquiries show that Gairus has about 73 different alts, all of whom hover between level 12 and 13. And he thought he could pull the wool over our eyes. He averages something like 900 xp/hour, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Unlike most uncontrolled powergamers however, he hides his 'fix' by generating another PC at an inconspicuous level. Learn from the master folks!

[T'Holoth Shadowborn]

I think it should be a locked class as well. if someone wants to RP a psion then have a chit chat with a DM. Give them a description of their character and how they see them being psionic. (or maybe how they came about to learn psionics? Not sure how to word that. Not any of that i got a head ache poof stuff). I know i was told my character had to RP it out and i spent a little time/DM involvement setting up to be one.

People who take psions to power game (hey i got to level 14 in 15 days! haha) or just a level or two to get dimention door (for example) are about as see through as the people who take one level of shadowdancer for HIPS.

I think an important aspect of being a psion is really giving a lot of thought to what powers you take. I tried and tried to justify my character taking life draining. I really wanted that power but i asked my peers in IRC and it was pretty unamious (sp?) that it was cheesy and simply not something my character would take, so i didnt take it.
When you take powers try to make it make sense IC.
A barbarian would probably have a lot of psychometabolic (body) powers but probably not many telepathic ones right?
why would a good character have a power like inflict pain.

I think that's something all spell casters should do but much more so with psions.

[ApproachingWinter]

A barbarian would probably have a lot of psychometabolic (body) powers but probably not many telepathic ones right?

If I ever see a Barbarian/Psionicist expect to be DM Killed daily.

[Psye Shaar]

As many times as i see these forums come up, it always makes me wonder if the comments are being aimed at me, as i'm sure, certain other players are too (and no I don't mean the obvious powergaming people)

I've at least tried to keep my character balanced and he does have a background that as far as i'm concerned justifies what he is now.

I do, on the other hand agree that psionics should be a locked class to stop people just picking up a couple of levels for certain features....

If any of the DM's think my char's cheesy, then please let me know... I can't change things if i don't know they're wrong....

Anyway.. it's late and i'm going to bed now... so no really nasty comments till i'm awake and able to reply to them

[Gairus]

The one thing everyone seems to agree on is that it should be locked in some way. Heh.

And curse your perceptiveness micah! *sobs and quietly worships Nighthawk*

[T'Holoth Shadowborn]

Psye Shaar I don't think anyone is singling anyone out.
Well except for the one comment I made but thats something obvious.

I think so a new player interested in playing a psion on hala, this thread will be a good read.

[Garden]

To become a member of the Celestial army, a period of observation is required. The character in question is observed by members of Celestia and must prove his/her intentions. This is done so that the RP stays pure and thus, for the most part, Celestials are good and righteous and don't do things like eat kittens and hang babies from trees.

If Psionics has some bad blood going around then why not have an equally difficult and lengthy time of observation? The DM locks or unlocks the class only after the character has 1) reached a respectable level... say 15, (2) has proven time and again that they stay within role and (3) reveals that the kind of role-playing they do will align well with the Psion class.

If you just want magic, take a rank in wizard. This is a specialty class and it seems deserving of specialized restrictions.

True, that this idea could lend to the possibility of DM favoritism, but that's always a possibility; furthermore, DM's tend to take the game rather seriously (in my experience) and would be less likely to act selfishly when it comes to playing (i.e. they don't need you to become a Psion nearly as much as you want to become one).

Why not create an academy for Psions? Have them become apprentices and make them practice through behavior before mind powers are granted?

-R.J.

[tid242]

If Psionics has some bad blood going around then why not have an equally difficult and lengthy time of observation? The DM locks or unlocks the class only after the character has 1) reached a respectable level... say 15, (2) has proven time and again that they stay within role and (3) reveals that the kind of role-playing they do will align well with the Psion class.

Well one of the counters to locking the class would be this: - ok... Actually maybe this is a question more than a comment: Where psionics originated (Dark Sun) there was not only the class, but also a wild-talent that everyone rolled for, because psionics were sort of random and imeshed with the world and its peoples. People taking a level or two of psion achieves this IMHO (not that i've ever taken any psion levels, just an observation). So on Hala are psionics secular and apart from the world or are they interwoven into the plains and its peoples?

Psionics is to Dark Sun as Lycanthropy is to Ravenloft. Whare are psionics with respect to Hala?

Another observation is this: When psionics were implemented on Avlis it was done so with the intent of psionicist being a base-class (which is why I disagree with requiring a lawful alignment, but that's a separate issue), if this is also the case with Hala, then I would argue that a base-class should not, nor ever should be, locked.

-tid242

[Arkon]

Well, see here's the thing...

Psions have to be Non-chaotic. This makes perfect sense as they have to have a sound (ei, non-chaotic) mind in order to have the control needed to use their minds in this way.

Hala/Ysgard is a Chaotic Plane... The decision has not been made as of yet, but I could see Psions becoming locked and non choosable in Hala's future depending on what the rest of the Team thinks about it. As a Chaotic plane, all Hala "born" should automatically be chaotic in my opinion, but doing that does not seem fair to the characters or players, but it does make sense that no Hala native would be able to be a psions in my opinion.

This is just my opinion and no necessarily the opinion of the team at this time.

[Psye Shaar]

When you put it like that, then agreed, psion isn't something that should be allowed to be taken as a base class, but something that could be unlocked at a later stage if the PC involved has RP'd that they have learned the control/personality/attitude necessary to be able to gain the kind of focus required by a psion.

Just a thought....

[Arkon]

Also of note... when it comes to the roleplay aspect of Psions.... the ones that we are typically talking about, that we are really annoyed by... that really irritate us... are the ones who have the alignment of Lawful or Neutral when in fact they are extremely chaotic. I'm sorry... but a High wisdom character is not going to walk up to Mr or Mrs Uberness level 60 NPC and say you are a jerk i'm going to kick your butt. Nor would they run around bragging about everything in the world. Those in my opinion are something that a chaotic/low wisdom character would do.

Tholoth brought up excellent points. In CoPaP, EVERYTHING YOU DO, EVERYTHING... your powers, your classes, your levels in those classes, your skills, your spells... everything should be able to be believably explained ICly. And don't give me the whole, while I did this and that and that happened so my LG character can use the Power of Extreme Evil Touch and bring forth a demon and suck the life out of somoene else and make it my own because of this... Think about it... would a LG character walk around stealing the life of someone else? No, not normally.

Keep your Character IC and there won't be any issues... Play a chaotic Psion... expect to get hit with some Serious Chaotic points. We are going to pussyfoot around this issue anymore. Alignment changes will start to happen whether people like them or not. You play an alignment, expect your alignment to reflect it and be ready to suffer the consequences for it. Before long the code will exist and we will likely use it that will restrict a lot of things based on Alignments (like clerics using an LG god as their diety but being CN will find themselves unable to use their powers). On Hala almost all Alignment changes are done via a DM. So yes, if you play an alignment.. you will match it... and no.. there are no, will not be, any quests to change your alignment... you want your alignment changed? Contact one of us with a justification for it and we'll watch you and consider it.

[Zombie]

Shame there is a limit of 3 classes cos um Morgan got the red knocked out of her with a shovel and now she is all lawfull and stuff and can use dimension door

I was disapointed to see the number of Psions that appeared when the class was introduced on Avlis. I was amazed at how powerfull some of the high lv characters got with just a few lvs of psion. It is a shame that you have to multiclass into a psion as you run the risk of your original class becoming just the way to get to psion. I have mainly seen this with fighter 1 psion X or even better fighter 2 so you get that extra feat.

All you can do about it is find a good bunch of people to rp with and stick with them.

[Gairus]

"run the risk of your original class becoming just the way to get to psion."?

Risk? Guarantee you mean.

Seems to me that fighter is the perfect base class if you want to just ignore it and act like you're single class psion (or bard or whatever), since fighter is the most generic class

[micah ormane]

Be a 10 INT wizard, or something similar.

[Gairus]

but psions need int! *hugs planar energy and hallucinate*

My preciouses!

[tid242]

Well, see here's the thing...

Psions have to be Non-chaotic. This makes perfect sense as they have to have a sound (ei, non-chaotic) mind in order to have the control needed to use their minds in this way.

Well in that respect it would also make sense that a wizard be non-chaotic as well, no?

So in answer to my earlier question: Psionics are not really ubiquitious to Hala in the 1st place? - If this is the case, and Psionics don't really fit with Hala overall, then I would agree that the class should be limited...

The thing I see is this: Psionics don't really fit anywhere. Even in Dark Sun I didn't really well understand what exactly it was that Psions were supposed to do, or how exactly they fit in. AFAIK none of the other TSR relms were supporting of psionics, if they were even allowed at all, and looking farther back Tolkein had nothing of the sort in his writings either - so all in all psionics are not something that typically fit in with the midevil fantasy worldview.

Ever since psionics were implemented (at least according the forums) people have disliked them for various reasons, which seem to me to be because they simply do not fit well with peoples' worldviews. Thus my greatest fear, with respect to psionics, is that psionics will be either barred, locked, or nerfed because of this bias.

Don't get me wrong - i think a lvl 15 fighter that takes 2 levels of psion just for the Psy-Clone is pure cheese. But so is a Wizard with 1 lvl paladin, or plenty of other class combos for that matter...

Anyway, I'm a newbie here and I haven't interacted with a whole lot of people, so what's pissing people off about Psions is probably something I've never experienced anyway....

-tid242

[Zombie]

From what I understand 'psionics', the ability to do weird stuff with your mind, has always been a science fiction ability rather than a medeival fantasy one. I cant think of any fantasy characters who would be classed as psions.

Personaly I have no problem with the idea of Psions and include them in my table top game. The revised dnd 3.5 rules are actually quite tight and very well balanced with the other classes. I can't even recognise the system implemented as used here, is it adnd 2nded?

[micah ormane]

I like 3.5 psionics as well. Unfortunately, we are playing 3ed-ish style game where the classes aren't balanced, and powers are limited by 1) the engine and 2) the people skilled enough to script these things. All-in-all, psionics are cool to have been implemented on CoPaP and NWN regardless of imbalance, bugs and complaints....it's the RP/IC motivation of many of the psions that is what really is in question.

[Zombie]

True. I would hate to see the results of the psionics system implemented on a hack and slash world where everyone is a rdd who uses two scimitars and has dev crit.

[Garden]

Telepathy is used by the Elves in Tolkien. Telekenises is used by wizards. Psionics is a similar thing, is it not? The ability to use one's mind to affect one's surroundings (including the minds of others).
I feel that, perhaps, the power of a Psion should be limited until the Psionic level is quite high. Like a Bard who, unitl higher levels, has a pretty weak song. I also think that strong guidlines and rules of ettiquett should be drawn up. Make the psionic character fun to play, but not so alluring that everybody wants to be part psion. Make popular spells upper level so that a player looking at the class knows that it will take a lot of effort and time if they want to be a part of this class. Perhaps that will deter people from joining for a lvl or two for the sake of an ability.
Finally, though I find the chaotic plane comment interesting, I feel I must point out that a story-line about training off world (in a non-chaotic plane) would remedy this; in fact, the suggestion I made earlier about a DM created Psion academy could be implemented in such a way that, the magically enhanced academy allows for focused mind-training.

Regardless, I like the idea of strong regulations of RP and believe that, once implemented and enforced concerning other classes, that the problems with psions will lessen a bit.

-R.J.

[T'Holoth Shadowborn]

I'd imagine everyone has their own opinion on how a psion should be played? Thats the crux of roleplaying, everyone looks at a class and how they should be played int heir own way.


I've always kind of pictured 99% of psions to be quiet thoughtful, introspective. I always imagined most people wouldn't know someone was a psion unless they were in a situation where it was crazy obvious. Thats one of the things i really liked about them. I really dislike the fact that psions in copap have visual effects that people can pick up on. I remember using danger sense before and someone commented "So have you always been a psion or did you just learn recently?" (I know, it's a little like people seeing someone whos invisible by accident, it happens)

Psions lose a lot of their cool factor with visual effects and just seem more like a wizard. Thats a whole new argument.

has any effort been put into fixing psions so that they slowly regenerate PSPs on their own?

[Xanthalas]

I'd imagine everyone has their own opinion on how a psion should be played? Thats the crux of roleplaying, everyone looks at a class and how they should be played int heir own way.


I've always kind of pictured 99% of psions to be quiet thoughtful, introspective.

I concur.. although I have always pictured Psionic characters as severely focused. Not so much introspective. Some I would believe to be more outgoing.. Though more rare. I remember one Psion I met was a Psion / Illusionist and was very outgoing and friendly. ((he started as a travelling illusionist that performed for money so it was his attitude)) But alot of it ties to the abilities chosen.. If you choose destruction and energy kind of abilities versus less subtle abilities.. I believe that shows alot about the personality. So far though I have had no complaints about any Psions ive met. Just my opine.

[Druid523]

I would just like to flex my muscles "that-a-way" to R.A. Salvatore. One of the characters he's created is the drow psionicist Kimmuriel Oblodra. Though the character wasn't as highly developed as say Drizzt and his crew, he did have a lot of gametime, so-to-speak. If you want to see a D&D psionicist in a fictional work, read up on Salvatore and this Kimmuriel character. Also, look up any stories involving Illithids, the great psionics-using race.

[Garden]

Sweet! I am so there